Thursday, January 18, 2007
A couple of weeks ago I posted my thoughts regarding the state of religion in today’s society and entitled it The Dangers of Literal Meanings. Well, someone posted a very good anonymous comment which I responded to. After many edits I decided to post the final version on the front page for everybody to see and debate. I put much time and thought into this response to make it as accurate as possible.
Please keep in mind, I am not trying to offend anybody but only trying to debate a topic which is very sensitive. It might be a good idea to ready part one before proceeding.
Anonymous said...
How about, "If you were God would you be able to make sure the bible was written exactly like you wanted it?" That's a good question worth asking too.
My Response...
You have uncovered one of the many of the many logical flaws within the Bible. I have thought about that but it is a flawed question. If God wanted to make sure the Bible was accurately depicted then why not just give us copy already written by Him? Wouldn’t that seem more logical than the alternative?
There so are many other important logical flaws within the Bible which are too easily dismissed by fundamentalists. These logical breakdowns are irrefutable evidence the Bible was not written by God but by man because God would not have made such obvious mistakes. At the very least we should believe that He probably gave us better explanations and reasons at the time which have long since been lost through man’s translations and storytelling. Since man did not have or most likely lost those logical explanations provided by God, we embellished, which might have seemed logical at the time but today most of those embellishments are almost laughable.
There are actually people who believe in the Old Testament that Noah actually gathered two of every animal in the world and loaded them onto his arc. By today’s standards imagine doing that? It would probably take you a lifetime just to gather up half of all the animals and this is if you had modern technology like planes and trucks to assist.
Let’s give the whole story about the Ten Commandments a quick reality check. Moses goes up the mountain to pray and ask God for help because an army led by a dictator is bearing down on his people to enslave them or worse kill them all. What is the first thing God says, “I am your God accept no others!” or something like that. If I was Moses I would have responded with, “Yea God that’s cool and all but how about something disallowing slavery? How about something against rich people dominating or controlling everybody’s life?” Nope. God responds with, “Go to Church on Sunday.”
When Moses comes down from Mount Sinai instead of being concerned with where the people were going to eat, or sleep or live, or even the disappointment about no commandment forbidding slavery. The first thing which angers him is the golden calf and the people are partying. That should have been the least of his worries.
Another example, after Jesus rose from the dead why not go back to Pontius Pilate and the other crucifiers. Walk right up to him in front of all of his men and say, “Look at me, I was crucified but I am not dead.” If that would have happened there would be absolutely no questions by any doubters. Jesus should have shown everybody His resurrected body but why did He show only a few believers? That does not make sense to me at all. If you are proclaiming yourself as a God who can defy death and forgive century old sins, then show everybody. There should be no mystery or questions at all; just, “I am God and here I am, period.”
Another logical inaccuracy is the crucifixion. Why did He have to be crucified to forgive our sins? Why not just forgive them? After all, He is God so He could have done that without going through the whole torture and death sequence. It doesn’t make logical sense to me. Now if He would have used the crucifixion to proclaim He defeated death and to prove He was God in front of millions of people and the leaders at the time, like I stated in the paragraph above, then it makes sense. Otherwise, we are left with illogical reasoning which does not make much sense at all. Why be tortured and crucified, then rise from the dead and NOT show yourself to the people who killed you? It doesn’t make sense.
The whole book of Revelations also seems very flawed. It was written by The Prophet John during his exile on Patmos. It has been written that he was nearing madness during this period of his life. So why would God choose an exiled man near madness to deliver these important messages? Don’t you think He would have chosen someone more credible? Let’s put that decision in perspective in today’s world. It would be almost like God choosing David Koresh (or insert any other cultist whacko here) to deliver a similar message.
There are so many more hundreds of logical flaws within the Bible but the most compelling argument in my favor is the more than 2,000 years of silence. With all the turmoil and all of the radical splits the Church has endured why not make another appearance to clear up these misunderstandings. After all, we are honestly tying to get it right and a little help would be appreciated.
There is more we DON’T know about God than we do know, so enlighten us. If He is telling us that we are going to be punished with eternal damnation if we do not believe in Him, then at least give us the courtesy of a follow up visit every millennium or so. Especially since we are intelligent beings and our theories in science are becoming more advanced; that seems the least He could do. Or are we to believe He is just sitting up there in heaven watching us screw up time and time again without any leadership, knowledge or advice?
These faults within the Bible simply cannot be dismissed; they must be dealt with using the brain-power God gave us. All of these logical flaws point to human misquotes and misinterpretations of events. As intelligence beings, we must evaluate things using logic and common sense and then determine our beliefs and conclusions. These laws of logic are one of the primary ways law enforcement detects lies while questioning a suspect or a judge uses in court while listening to testimony. There are other ways too but if the laws of logic are broken then we are left with inaccuracies and falsehoods.
I do not claim to have all of the answers but I don’t think the correct questions are being asked by theologians either. They are the ones with the knowledge of the Bible but they are in too deep to answer any of these questions because they have already accepted these flaws and are able to look beyond them. I’m not a theologian but just a man trying to solve the mysteries of life, while asking what I believe to be the correct and proper questions to these theologians, who assume the Bible is 100% accurate regardless of what common sense, logic and science dictates.
Unfortunately, many of the theologians are also the fundamentalists which I have written about many times in this blog. Fundamentalists only see “black and white” and can never see any “grey areas”. In their minds the whole thing must be correct or the whole thing is wrong. Since they have already placed a high emotional value on the Bible being 100% correct, they cannot emotionally deal with these questions being asked, much less being able to have an intelligent conversation about them.
The one thing religion does is put limitations on imagination, creativity and ingenuity. Whenever science discovers something which conflicts with religious dogma, the scientists are met with hostility. So we were given this mind with endless abilities but we are expected to keep it closed and only accept certain teachings which have existed for thousands of years. This makes no logical sense to me at all.
I don’t believe a true God would have a problem with people not believing in Him. It sounds too egotistical and masochistic to be believable. Why would He care if these simple mortals believe in Him; if He exists then He exists, why punish the ignorant. But all religions believe the most important thing is to believe in their God above all other Gods regardless of the implications or the rationality. And if you do not believe then you will be endlessly tortured or damned for eternity. But then when You were here on Earth You left us with a bunch of riddles and stories which do not add up to modern theories.
Shouldn't God be more concerned with humanity and people treating the other living creatures with dignity, respect and care rather than who believes in Him? Here is a short list of things that are more important than believing in one God over another God: genocide, war, rape, murder, slavery, world hunger, education (or lack of), poverty, healthcare, and torture. Doesn’t it seem logical a true God would give priority over those things?
Tragically, many people have been tortured, killed and imprisoned through the years because of the Bible’s literal meanings or quotes supposedly flowing from the tongue of God. Fundamentalists are now trying to take over our Country and dictate rules based upon these writings. This is wrong.
If you are a theologian which questions common sense, logic and science, then I would have to say to you, why would God gives us this brain with these abilities and expect us not to use it?
Thanks for your comment.
Please keep in mind, I am not trying to offend anybody but only trying to debate a topic which is very sensitive. It might be a good idea to ready part one before proceeding.
Anonymous said...
How about, "If you were God would you be able to make sure the bible was written exactly like you wanted it?" That's a good question worth asking too.
My Response...
You have uncovered one of the many of the many logical flaws within the Bible. I have thought about that but it is a flawed question. If God wanted to make sure the Bible was accurately depicted then why not just give us copy already written by Him? Wouldn’t that seem more logical than the alternative?
There so are many other important logical flaws within the Bible which are too easily dismissed by fundamentalists. These logical breakdowns are irrefutable evidence the Bible was not written by God but by man because God would not have made such obvious mistakes. At the very least we should believe that He probably gave us better explanations and reasons at the time which have long since been lost through man’s translations and storytelling. Since man did not have or most likely lost those logical explanations provided by God, we embellished, which might have seemed logical at the time but today most of those embellishments are almost laughable.
There are actually people who believe in the Old Testament that Noah actually gathered two of every animal in the world and loaded them onto his arc. By today’s standards imagine doing that? It would probably take you a lifetime just to gather up half of all the animals and this is if you had modern technology like planes and trucks to assist.
Let’s give the whole story about the Ten Commandments a quick reality check. Moses goes up the mountain to pray and ask God for help because an army led by a dictator is bearing down on his people to enslave them or worse kill them all. What is the first thing God says, “I am your God accept no others!” or something like that. If I was Moses I would have responded with, “Yea God that’s cool and all but how about something disallowing slavery? How about something against rich people dominating or controlling everybody’s life?” Nope. God responds with, “Go to Church on Sunday.”
When Moses comes down from Mount Sinai instead of being concerned with where the people were going to eat, or sleep or live, or even the disappointment about no commandment forbidding slavery. The first thing which angers him is the golden calf and the people are partying. That should have been the least of his worries.
Another example, after Jesus rose from the dead why not go back to Pontius Pilate and the other crucifiers. Walk right up to him in front of all of his men and say, “Look at me, I was crucified but I am not dead.” If that would have happened there would be absolutely no questions by any doubters. Jesus should have shown everybody His resurrected body but why did He show only a few believers? That does not make sense to me at all. If you are proclaiming yourself as a God who can defy death and forgive century old sins, then show everybody. There should be no mystery or questions at all; just, “I am God and here I am, period.”
Another logical inaccuracy is the crucifixion. Why did He have to be crucified to forgive our sins? Why not just forgive them? After all, He is God so He could have done that without going through the whole torture and death sequence. It doesn’t make logical sense to me. Now if He would have used the crucifixion to proclaim He defeated death and to prove He was God in front of millions of people and the leaders at the time, like I stated in the paragraph above, then it makes sense. Otherwise, we are left with illogical reasoning which does not make much sense at all. Why be tortured and crucified, then rise from the dead and NOT show yourself to the people who killed you? It doesn’t make sense.
The whole book of Revelations also seems very flawed. It was written by The Prophet John during his exile on Patmos. It has been written that he was nearing madness during this period of his life. So why would God choose an exiled man near madness to deliver these important messages? Don’t you think He would have chosen someone more credible? Let’s put that decision in perspective in today’s world. It would be almost like God choosing David Koresh (or insert any other cultist whacko here) to deliver a similar message.
There are so many more hundreds of logical flaws within the Bible but the most compelling argument in my favor is the more than 2,000 years of silence. With all the turmoil and all of the radical splits the Church has endured why not make another appearance to clear up these misunderstandings. After all, we are honestly tying to get it right and a little help would be appreciated.
There is more we DON’T know about God than we do know, so enlighten us. If He is telling us that we are going to be punished with eternal damnation if we do not believe in Him, then at least give us the courtesy of a follow up visit every millennium or so. Especially since we are intelligent beings and our theories in science are becoming more advanced; that seems the least He could do. Or are we to believe He is just sitting up there in heaven watching us screw up time and time again without any leadership, knowledge or advice?
These faults within the Bible simply cannot be dismissed; they must be dealt with using the brain-power God gave us. All of these logical flaws point to human misquotes and misinterpretations of events. As intelligence beings, we must evaluate things using logic and common sense and then determine our beliefs and conclusions. These laws of logic are one of the primary ways law enforcement detects lies while questioning a suspect or a judge uses in court while listening to testimony. There are other ways too but if the laws of logic are broken then we are left with inaccuracies and falsehoods.
I do not claim to have all of the answers but I don’t think the correct questions are being asked by theologians either. They are the ones with the knowledge of the Bible but they are in too deep to answer any of these questions because they have already accepted these flaws and are able to look beyond them. I’m not a theologian but just a man trying to solve the mysteries of life, while asking what I believe to be the correct and proper questions to these theologians, who assume the Bible is 100% accurate regardless of what common sense, logic and science dictates.
Unfortunately, many of the theologians are also the fundamentalists which I have written about many times in this blog. Fundamentalists only see “black and white” and can never see any “grey areas”. In their minds the whole thing must be correct or the whole thing is wrong. Since they have already placed a high emotional value on the Bible being 100% correct, they cannot emotionally deal with these questions being asked, much less being able to have an intelligent conversation about them.
The one thing religion does is put limitations on imagination, creativity and ingenuity. Whenever science discovers something which conflicts with religious dogma, the scientists are met with hostility. So we were given this mind with endless abilities but we are expected to keep it closed and only accept certain teachings which have existed for thousands of years. This makes no logical sense to me at all.
I don’t believe a true God would have a problem with people not believing in Him. It sounds too egotistical and masochistic to be believable. Why would He care if these simple mortals believe in Him; if He exists then He exists, why punish the ignorant. But all religions believe the most important thing is to believe in their God above all other Gods regardless of the implications or the rationality. And if you do not believe then you will be endlessly tortured or damned for eternity. But then when You were here on Earth You left us with a bunch of riddles and stories which do not add up to modern theories.
Shouldn't God be more concerned with humanity and people treating the other living creatures with dignity, respect and care rather than who believes in Him? Here is a short list of things that are more important than believing in one God over another God: genocide, war, rape, murder, slavery, world hunger, education (or lack of), poverty, healthcare, and torture. Doesn’t it seem logical a true God would give priority over those things?
Tragically, many people have been tortured, killed and imprisoned through the years because of the Bible’s literal meanings or quotes supposedly flowing from the tongue of God. Fundamentalists are now trying to take over our Country and dictate rules based upon these writings. This is wrong.
If you are a theologian which questions common sense, logic and science, then I would have to say to you, why would God gives us this brain with these abilities and expect us not to use it?
Thanks for your comment.
Labels: Religion
posted by DarthImmortal at 7:26 AM
2 Comments:
A fascinating subject, and one worthy of much consideration. I agree with you wholeheartedly, that God created us with a sense of logic in order to ask questions such as these. This would be my take, which is no doubt riddled by my lack of knowledge and rather less wisdom than I would like.
Your questions seem to fall into several groups.
Why didn't God whip up a ready made, bound and proofread copy of the Bible from the get-go? Why go silent for ages at a time? Why leave grey areas about what we are supposed to do?
Good questions these. It would certainly remove some doubts if we all were on the same page, so to speak. Better still, why not create a people who had an instinctual knowledge of what God wants from us? A bible built right into the skull of every man or woman. A people incapable of doing wrong, drawn to do the right thing in the same way that a moth is drawn to light or a baby knows to suckle for nourishment. Perhaps there is something valuable in free will, or at least the appearance of free will. I don't think it's beyond the power of an all powerful God to make sure things end up the way God wants them to. And it surely seems that God would have an interest in seeing that the book that bears God's written will would be composed just the way God wanted it. Why then, with an all powerful God, is there suffering and sadness in the world (beyond the normal day-to-day struggle that any living creature endures)?
Why was Jesus crucified in the first place? Why not go do a touchdown dance in the great temple after resurrection, and then go flip the Romans the bird?
Crucified to fulfill prophecy, as the perfect sacrifice(sacrifices which were demanded by the Old Covenanent between God and man). And why not get in the face of the powers that be? During Jesus' ministry, every time Jesus gathered a large flock around himself (when his popularity seemed at his peak) he would tell of the complexities and troubles of following His way. It is clear, He was not looking to maximize his worldly followers. He offered his followers a difficult path, where breaking the law was not just a sin, but even desiring to break it was sin. Perhaps revealing Himself to the powers of the age would have destroyed the value of faith. Everyone who has taken a trip on a rocket knows the truth of the existence of outer space; They have experienced it. But for some who haven't, there must always be doubts of the reality of it, thoughts that it's all a hoax made up by a government cabal.
Why the descriptions of things that seem clearly impossible, like the story of the Ark?
Perhaps these are miraculous signs that anything is possible for God, for surely you have noted that such a thing would take a man a lifetime even with the technology we have today. Much like Jesus rising from the dead, things that must seem strange indeed to those who haven't seen them in the flesh. It seems to me that there's more to this world than what you see with your eyes. In a certain swashbuckling space drama I seem to recall a short green fella who believed that we were luminous beings, not constrained to the crude magic of the flesh. If even ancient and campy green Jedi knights take it as a point of fact, doesn't it seem to be worthy of consideration?
What's up with the book of revelation? (no s on that, by the way)
Prophecy is ever a mystery. I rarely even look at revelation. I would say beware those who claim to understand it, for it says that no one will know the day or the hour of it's fulfillment.
All of these subjects are covered in greater detail and with a better understanding then I could ever muster under the heading of apologetics. I know there have been great apologetic debates on every issue you could imagine. They must be on the web somewhere. I would search there for better answers.
You bring up some excellent possible answers to the questions I proposed. The truth is, which I am sure you will agree with, that none of us will ever know exactly what happened. As a Christian, I have no problem admitting this. The problem I have is with people that claim Christianity (or any religion) is 100% accurate and preach the Bible like it “flows from the mouth of God”. Then they judge everybody else and hold them to their own standards. Even worse is when they infiltrate governments and pass laws establishing national religions and punishing the unbelievers. That is so absurd to believe that I cannot even contemplate it.
I have asked myself many times why I am a Christian because I do have so much doubt. The only true answer I can give is that the alternative is bleak. I can either believe there will be a better place where justice exists. A place where the corrupt will finally get what is coming to them, because they have it very good on Earth. Or I can believe when you die, you’re dead.
I do believe in a higher plane of consciousness which exists in the after-life. Just what this place is called, if it is heaven, I don’t know. But I do believe in it. I also believe (or hope) the people who prey upon other people finally pay for their sins. The corrupt leaders who send innocent men off to die so the rich can prosper or the ones who commit genocide, or the CEO who destroys families so he can collect a bigger bonus will finally have to answer for their sins. As Jesus said, “The meek will inherit the Earth.” (if He did say it – who knows). Because if God does exist but he allows this corruption and these atrocities to happen under His watch without any penalties, then He won’t be worth spending eternity with anyway.
I was raised Roman Catholic but I am now Lutheran but both religions are very flawed. The problem with the Catholics is they allow a man to speak as if he was God. That is the definition of an Anti-Christ. The Synod Lutherans are true fundamentalists in that they believe in the Bible like it “flows from the mouth of God”. I have already stated the obvious flaws in that theory. So I am stuck in the middle and I’m thinking, there must be many people like me who believe in a God but not necessarily in the Bible’s (or man’s) depiction of God. There really might be something else we are missing but we are so hung up on the Christian faith, we might be missing obvious signs of the true God.
The true God might be waiting for us to discover Him through science. He might be sitting on a distant star or waiting under the microscope for us to find Him. But when we get close these fundamentalist religions throw up blinders and threaten us all with eternal damnation if we continue. I think it would be better if more people were neutral on this topic but these fundamentalist laws are branded into our brain at a very young age and we are taught if we question them or drift away we will be punished.
Thanks for your comment, it was awesome!!
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